Reconstruction and Opportunity in Ukraine with Bruce Talley

Welcome to the Construction Disruption podcast, where we uncover the future of design, building, and remodeling. I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah Industries, manufacturer of specialty residential and other use metal roofing. Welcome to Construction Disruption, the show where we break ground on new ideas and happenings in the worlds of construction and remodeling. Today, I'm joined by co-host Ryan Bell. What's up, Ryan?

Hey, Todd. Not much. How are you doing? I am doing well. I've got an interesting story to share. So, this goes back to the early 90s when you would have been probably a tweener, I guess. Is that what you call them? Tweens? Yeah. So, there was a news story back then, and I admit, this sounds like it's a setup for one of my stupid jokes. It is not. This is legit. But anyway, there was a news story back then of an escaped convict, I think it was in the Carolinas,

who ended up breaking in through the roof of a Toys R Us store, for those of us who remember Toys R Us, and he lived up above the store for like six months, maybe longer. Of course, this was before security cameras were all over, and, you know, at night, he would come down into the store and mess around and stuff and find food and then go back up, sleeping above the ceiling. So, it's an interesting story. But, of course, Toys R Us was a national

account of ours back then. Anyone that remembers the old Toys R Us design, which had the brown metal shingle mansards out front, that was our product. So, they've recently released and made a movie about this guy that they call Roof Man, because he lived up in the roof, and just hitting theaters. It has Channing Tatum and Kirsten Dunst and Peter Dinklage in it. So, it's got some big names in it. No way.

Yeah, it does. So, I was kind of excited. So, I thought, well, that'd be really cool if they've got the store design, you know, with our old shingles on it. But, unfortunately, it was right in the early 90s when Toys R Us started to play around with another store design. So, the store that's in the movie does not have our shingles on it. But, anyway, it looks like a cool movie. It looks funny. I encourage everyone to…

What's it called? Roof Man. Roof Man. Just that simple. You're right. First, I thought what it was about me, but that didn't work out that way. Anyway. So, that's my advice. Go see Roof Man, but you're not going to see brown shingles on the Toys R Us, unfortunately. Hey, are you good to go? Should we drive forward? Yes. Let's get started. Awesome. Well, today on Construction Disruption, I'm pleased to say that we're joined by Bruce

Talley, CEO of Destination Ukraine. With a degree in economics, Bruce worked in American capital markets selling bond issues to individuals and loan participation to commercial banks. With lifetime sales of over $2 billion, he led West Coast sales for his firm. Later, Bruce bought and sold commercial land in southern Russia for his and his partner's accounts. While living in Sochi, Russia, he started and built a destination management company that became the largest in Russia.

Since February of 2022, though, Bruce has been engaged in Ukraine's recovery. He started a destination management firm for companies shifting operations and quickly saw the opportunities in residential ownership due to the war, due to population shifts, and undervalued apartments in such cities as Kiev, Lviv, and Odessa. As I mentioned earlier, Bruce is currently CEO of Destination Ukraine, and he is also co-founder of the Ukraine Prime Property Fund. As he looks at the reconstruction of

Ukraine, he feels very strongly that U.S. and European manufacturers and other companies really need to lead the way. Bruce, welcome to Construction Disruption. Looking forward to talking to you. Thanks a lot for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, I know it's a great story that you have, and I just think things like these that are going to be such an impact in terms of construction and development going on. It's going to have lots of opportunities

for U.S. companies, so that's why we wanted to explore it. So tell me a little bit about your early years and what led you to living in Russia for, what, like 10 years or something? Yeah, it was just about 10 years. Well, you know, I'm afflicted by this thing called curiosity. That's good for you. Yeah. And, well, as you mentioned, I worked in American capital markets. I worked for a company that specialized in underwriting and selling.

bond issues in california it was it's huge uh market obviously and we also did loan participations for standard commercial projects like hotels and office buildings condo projects and especially native american casinos we were probably the leading lender although a non-bank lender so we participated all the loans out so i i sold a lot of those loans for the native american casinos and and uh but later you know i was really interested i did a lot of traveling for fun and i read a lot of

russian and soviet history and russian literature don't ask me why it just was a kind of a passion or strong interest of mine and i guess probably because my folks read a lot and um so i went to have this uh germ of an idea that russia was going to develop the rule of law and don't laugh too hard at me here because i i feel my naivete is showing but i i thought that russia was going to uh develop and democratize and and you know develop a an economy in a stable form of government that respected

human rights i thought it was going to turn into something like a great big czech republic which i think is kind of a model for you know post-soviet economies and so i went over there and and um way led on to way and i wound up in in crescent our region crescent our cry which is on the east side of the black sea and uh eventually i started buying and selling commercial land i thought that the cry which

has much better weather than you typically associate with russia in the winter time you know it's maybe sochi is maybe something like north carolina uh so it's not so cold right and um the summers are quite pleasant on the black sea so i thought that the black sea region was going to experience some of the kind of development boom and demographic shifts that you know california for example has experienced

so that's that's how i wound up down there yeah you know it's a real educational process and i oftentimes think about the the dunning kruger uh effect and i think that in the beginning i was probably living at the very peak where i assumed my knowledge base was much greater than it is but um yeah i always try to learn um you know i ukraine and russia have they're different countries russia has no right to be invading but

they have similar business and legal systems so um i think that you know i go in with a healthy respect for what both what i know and what i don't know and i always try to learn um but i do see um a lot of opportunity in ukraine coming up and i'm kind of curious back to owning and running businesses in russian and i'm right there with you i remember that period when we thought that you know russia would end up being a workable society and culture but um being over there as an american doing

things sounds a little cloak and dagger to me i'm just curious any real interesting stories or insights from those times well yeah i um you know i was i was living in krassadar region and i was uh also spending time in this uh breakaway uh republic that separated there was an ethnic conflict in a place called abkhazia in the early 1990s and uh the georgians actually attacked abkhazia which was formally a part of the republic of georgia and then you know eventually they were expelled and you know

there's charges of ethnic cleansing on both sides it's kind of a a nasty history but i thought that abkhazia should develop maybe in the way that montenegro or one of these places that the former yugoslavia would it's beautiful place but it existed in isolation for a real long time so i was in and out of there quite a bit and then i was also lived in sochi for you know almost five years so um those

two experiences i was the only american going in out of out of abkhazia i was seeking to help them on privatization of state-owned resorts i didn't want to get involved in you know people who'd abandoned their property or anything like that but that put me on the radar screen of the ministry of foreign affairs at least that's who they said they were but really it was the fsb so yeah i spent of the almost

the almost 10 years i spent there i spent at least at least five under near continent constant scrutiny of the FSB would, you know, they want me in and talk to me and are you CIA and so forth. For your listeners that are historically minded, my very first episode actually was, I had, you had to register your documents with the authorities anytime you went to a different city. And there were that the laws in Russia are written in

conflict with each other. And I've never really understood was that on purpose? Or is it just kind of sloppiness? So it's very difficult to be in compliance with a law because you you might be complying with one law and not complying as a result with another. Anyway, I had to register my documents and the local authorities in this smaller city, which I lived in before I lived in Sochi called Kropotkin, they were causing me some issues

with registration, they put violations on my visa. In theory, my, my, my visa could have been canceled, I could have been deported. Well, anyway, they saw me in town one day to keep this story as short as I can, they saw me in town one day. And they figured, well, he hasn't been in to register his documents here. So he's illegally here, he he's probably living here, but not registered. I was actually at this time living in Krasnodar. So

he took me to the police station. And within minutes, I was upstairs in the FSB offices being questioned, and I was questioned for about five hours. And I at one point, my neck started getting a little bit sore. And it's a little bit of a segue here. This is when I knew I was really on my own. I'm, you know, close to 1000 miles from the American embassy. And I'm being questioned very, very closely by the FSB and in Russian. So I thought, well, the

training wheels are off now, you know. But anyway, at one point, my neck got a little stiff. And I, I kind of turned like this, and I see this portrait on the wall, and it's about four feet tall, and I don't know, two or two and a half feet wide. And again, historically minded people know probably who this fellow was a guy's name was Felix Jerzynski. Felix Jerzynski started the Chaka, which became the NKVD, eventually the KGB and the FSB

internal security apparatus. And so old iron Felix, as he was known, had, you know, killed quite a few people. And I was visibly shocked, you know, I mean, you can go in the office, I'm pretty sure you can go into every office police station in Germany and not see a portrait of Heinrich Himmler. So, you know, this was, this was one of the really interesting things and kind of an introduction to me, I thought, wow, these folks

haven't dealt with their past very well. And I think that you see the result now. Was there ever a moment during that interview, shall I say that you regretted this sense of adventure and curiosity and wonderlust that had plagued you? You're gonna wonder what's there's something wrong genetically with this guy. But no, I actually had that point. And it was just the first of many, many experiences like that. And

later, I was in Asia, and they were, you know, they were always around, they talked to the people that I talked to, I'm sure they talked to my employees, we eventually had about 60 employees, they talked to waiters and waitresses and more restaurants. And I mean, it was kind of, it sounds probably more oppressive than it really was, I got sort of used to it. And I thought, okay, for some of these guys, they're sort of checking the

box, right. But, you know, there were a number of real interesting experiences in all that I, I can tell you as many stories as you like to hear. So another episode, we will be able to devote it just to interesting stories behind, behind the Iron Curtain, I guess. But well, let's come back to a little bit more what you're doing now. I know a few weeks ago, you were over in Ukraine. What were your observations? What's it like over there right now?

Yeah, really interesting trip for me, I went through Moldova, typically, I go through Poland, there, there's good, there are good train connections between Warsaw and Kyiv, and then from Lviv over to Krakow, Poland, they're good connection, but I was going to wind up down in Odessa. So I went through Moldova, Moldova, and then I went to a business conference in Shatomar, which is west of Kyiv, and then down to Odessa and out of Bucharest,

Romania. And I met Doug Clayton from from, you know, with on the real estate fund. And it does I have been to Odessa, I've been to probably the first time I would say around 2002. I spent a lot of time in Ukraine when I lived in Russia. And out of curiosity, I traveled there. And what was really impressive, and it never fails to really catch my attention when I'm in Ukraine, is the resilience of Ukrainian people. I think

it's just a human quality. They're getting up, they're going to work. And Odessa, which is, I don't know, maybe 100 miles from Kherson, which is, I think, on the Russians on the other side of the Dnepr there. So it's not so very far away. And every once in a while, you hear about a tragedy or some, you know, rocket being lobbed in there. But I'm there the last weekend of the summer. And the place was full of people who are vacationing, working, building, getting married, we toured a

number of apartment complexes that were being constructed as were there. So it's amazing how Ukrainians in the face of such terrible, you know, tragedy and privation and war are living their lives. And yeah, so you really, if you didn't know, you wouldn't know. Isn't that something? I know I have some friends over there. And, you know, I kind of watch them on Facebook, and I sense the same thing. They're, they're just going about lives normal. And oh, yeah, we had

to get into the shelter again last night, three or four times or something. But well, as hopefully, this is all over at some point. But from your perspective, what are going to be the most urgent building needs or building material needs, once they can, you know, effectively start ramping up and scaling the rebuilding? That's a really great question. I know folks in a lot of industries over there, and

they tell me that float glass is going to be a big, big issue, cement and precast. I've talked to some people, Americans, actually, who are investigating the opportunities over there, because what they tell me is that the technology and products that are produced in Ukraine are inferior and more expensive than what American companies use. Bricks, surprisingly, they produce bricks very cheaply in Moldova, in this breakaway region of Moldova called Transnestria. But I think bricks,

bricks are very commonly used in single family home construction. In the cities, probably 80% of the people live in apartments, but in smaller towns, single family homes usually are constructed from bricks. So that's going to be a big thing. Insulation, I think waterproofing is an issue. And then they're all, you know, all these things are affected by energy costs, which have been obviously affected

by by the war, right, and supplies. And I, you know, I think that there are also going to be problems with remediation of soil, asbestos problems, you know, in residential areas. So those are those are barriers that folks are going to have to overcome. And, you know, but I think American companies are poised in all those ways to, to take advantage. And I believe Western Ukraine is going to wind up being a manufacturing zone, you know, maybe there's an American float glass company

that wants to set up operations, because the costs are so much cheaper in Ukraine than they are in Poland. I think that we calculated that the cost for an employee out the door, a laborer in Ukraine are about 28% of what they are in Poland. So I foresee something like a Macriodora zone, like you see in Tijuana, I foresee something like that in Western Ukraine. You know, as they start to rebuild, do you think

their focus will be primarily on initial and residential or more on infrastructure or manufacturing buildings? What? Or do you just think everything has to happen at once? Yeah, yeah, kind of. I mean, there have been, there's been so much damage to infrastructure, like hospitals have been hit hard. You know, bridges, gas supplies, debris removal and demining and soil remediation are going to be a big thing, energy and transportation. Of course, housing 10 to 13% of Ukraine's housing stock has been

destroyed. But in some of those cities in the east, they're not going to be rebuilt, or even a larger city like Kharkiv, and which is close to the Russian border, maybe 20 miles or so. I was there about two weeks after they kicked the Russians out in 2022. And there's extensive, extensive damage there. And my feeling is that Kharkiv will probably all always be there, but it's not going to be in the same city

that it was before. So there's a huge population shift. And that was taken that really started to take place. Before the full scale invasion, you know, in in 2014, the Russians took Crimea and destabilized southeastern Ukraine. So there's been this population shift. So I see a lot of folks moving, internally displaced people winding up in Kiev, winding up in Lviv, winding up in in Western cities. And, you know, it's, as a

matter of fact, a low cost American furniture company has set up operations and they're they want to have office locations in 20 or 25 locations in 20 or 25 cities by the end of next year. So yeah, it's but so I see a population shift. And then I also see, you know, there are some of the refugees who left Ukraine probably won't come back. But there will be there will be a lot that will. And so I think what I'm trying to say in my roundabout

way is housing stocks got to be rebuilt, but it's not going to be in the same places. Gotcha. Very interesting. Well, I know you're bullish on the idea of US companies kind of, you know, playing a major role in the rebuilding. Just kind of reflect a little bit on why that's more important than, you know, say companies from China or Turkey ending up playing the lead role. Well, I think Chinese companies

have got a real problem in trying to get business in Ukraine, because the perception very strong public perception is China is that without Chinese help, the Russians would have a very difficult time continuing the war. And so I Chinese companies will really be handicapped there. I know that there are some Korean companies that are aggressively looking around, I think, Turkey, that's kind of different. They've kind of straddled the line a

little bit between Russia and Ukraine, but they did broker that black sea grain initiative that allowed the Ukrainians to export a lot of grain. And there are, you know, they're close, there are some there is a lot of work together, not only economically, but, but militant on military matters. So I think Turkish companies will be a factor in Ukraine. But yeah, I do believe that there's a place, a big

place for Americans, for American companies. I think perhaps some, some American companies have the perception that well, it's a long ways away, and there's a war going on. But you know, you look at a city like Lviv, I think they've had less than 200 apartments destroyed in the nearly four years since the full scale war. Well, out of out of a city of 750,000, that's probably not a whole lot different than the number of homes destroyed in an

average city from fires. And I don't mean to minimize the human tragedies, which are right everywhere in Ukraine, you can't almost can't speak to Ukrainian person without hearing its story of that. I don't mean to minimize this in any way. But the, you have to remember that Ukraine is a country about the size of Texas. So what happens in El Paso or Houston doesn't necessarily translate in the same way to the other city, right. And so, so I think that American companies really should be there.

There's a perception of Americans is hardworking and innovative and creative and, and that we produce quality products and we're dependable. So would you think that might also include, I would assume, American contractors going there to, to do labor and do work or? Yeah, I do believe that there's a place, I think that we're, I think American companies, contractors can go over there, there's going to be so much infrastructure that needs to be done. So much opportunity, there's going to be a wall of money that hits estimates of damage are over, you know, 500 billion. I don't know whether it's euros or dollars now. And I, my suspicion is that that's, that's conservative.

And then I think there'll be a lot of public money or private money go in there as well. So, you know, I mean, there are some issues though. We, we, I think that the United States, if we want to take a lead role in this, I think that the United States needs to be more proactive in terms of supporting Ukraine, you know, but previously we were supporting the government, humanitarian efforts, and the military and we've now, we've pulled our, our help from military and, and we're no longer sharing intelligence with them. And so Ukrainians feel a little bit.

Yeah. left out on the cold on that and i think that's dissipated some of the american advantage that we naturally have because ukraine and poland in my experience over the last you know number of years are probably as pro-american or maybe more pro-american than any two countries in the world and so i think that by um kind of vacating our our our presence there that i i don't think that that means that american companies can't do business or that uh we still don't have uh some

advantages there but i do believe that um from a moral and humanitarian standpoint we should be doing more to support well for any american companies you know building material manufacturers contractors um who you know are interested in this opportunity or in supporting the rebuilding what practical steps do you think they should be taking now and you know in the coming months to to help toward that end well there there are two conferences coming up there's the um

uh kiev build conference in kiev in february and there's the ukraine builds conference in uh warsaw in i think it's november 13th and 14th and both of these are enormous conferences and really companies should show up and go there i mean the german companies are all over the place at these and there's was more of an ambivalent reaction from the german government towards support for a long time about ukraine but those german companies are very aggressive at looking for for business in ukraine

and so i would say you know show up there go there the other thing of course they can do is contact us contact me so so what sort of role are you playing to help yeah well so i have taken over uh technology investors uh investors in real estate obviously um we're prepared when companies set up business to provide workforce relocation to provide staffing transportation offices help in search for locations we

have uh people that speak virtually every european language on staff certainly fluent in english and so we're prepared to help those companies out that first want to show up and investigate the opportunities and then if they decide to to to get involved we can help them soup soup to nuts it seems to me like you know if if this does play out and american companies are playing a significant role that

you know that's also going to help a great deal with the ties between u.s industry and and ukraine and western europe and ukraine and all that it it will and hopefully that will feed back backwards into government policy you know it goes both ways i have a an interesting anecdote if you don't mind me sharing when i was in moldova i met uh uh someone that i've known for a number of years that that spends a lot

time in moldova american guy and it happened to be on the 35th anniversary of their signing their declaration of independence from soviet union i think 35th or 34th maybe but anyway he told me that he went to it and he said had there been a you know had there been a um an event like that in years past there would have been a lot of americans there moldova is kind of a crucial place because it's uh mostly romanian partly russian speakers and has close kind of ethnic and cultural linguistic ties

with romania and yet was part of the soviet union so there are some some some and the russians have been working to undermine their their elections there so but anyway he told me that he went to this event and he said in years past there there would have been lots of americans there you know um to show their presence and he said he was the only one there this time so that the kind of absence of american actors on the scene is it's felt in both ukraine and and and i think moldova right now so

hopefully american companies getting involved we'll we'll we'll get our our our folks our government back re-engaged over there very good well i'm curious you know from your time in russia a number of years ago you know what lessons do you carry from that into this new mission um of working in the ukraine and you know how is that going to help influence your thoughts and you know what will be really

different from this uh with ukraine versus what you experienced in russia that's really a great question and i think you know with some with some reason people in the business community in the u.s may sort of lump uh ukraine with russia with the problems with the corruption with the oppression and and There's really a lot of nuance with that. Despite my, you know, I married a Russian woman. I lived in Russia a number of years. I've got a lot of Russian friends. Despite all of that, and it's quite public knowledge, I haven't hid it. There's no hiding it anyway. I've never been approached. And I expected that I would. I thought, okay, somebody's going to talk to me and be curious about what I'm doing.

So here is Ukraine being attacked, and I have not had anything at all. Whereas all those years in Russia, you know, I face constant scrutiny. So I think that Ukraine is moving in an entirely different direction. And when you talk, especially to younger people, younger business people and academics and people in government, they're thinking along the European model, the thinking has changed. That doesn't mean that it changes overnight.

But that Ukraine has made a decision, we want to go, we want to live like Poland, we want to integrate with Europe. And I think that the support for European integration in Ukraine is something like 85%. And so while there are some similarities, and you know, I think as business people, we need to always keep that in mind. There are a lot of differences too. And so there's a big, big, big opportunity.

I think Ukraine is going to be the frontier economy to invest in for the next several decades. Very interesting. Well, yeah, I have to imagine in our audience, there are a lot of people who are saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm listening to this, but I'm still rather skeptical. It doesn't seem like something that, you know, I as an American company want to get involved in. What would you say to them? Well, you know, I would take a look at what the opportunities are versus the risks. And of course, it's a little bit difficult for somebody that's not familiar with Ukraine to quantify those risks. So really, they have to, if they're open minded at all, they need to, you know, do a little investigating and go over there.

But at the same time, where are your opportunities right now in the United States, things are slowing down a little bit. And so for companies that are comfortable operating or taking a look at international operations, things, things aren't static, they're always changing, right? Look at what happened in Vietnam. Vietnam was, you know, I mean, it's becoming in a Southeast Asian economic powerhouse.

So I'm sure there are some companies that can afford to ignore those international opportunities. But if you are international in scope at all, you're not going to look at what happened in the last two decades, what's going to happen in the next two decades. And I think that Ukraine being the breadbasket of the world, I mean, it's, they've got 25% of the world's best land, Black Earth, they have other resources, they are technological powerhouse, it's Ukraine is going to be probably the defense manufacturer for Europe in the coming decades.

And so you're going to see a lot of companies in a number of industries, including agriculture, shifting over in that direction. I think that there will be a lot of things happening. I think manufacturing is going to be moving on mass to Ukraine. And so if you ignore this opportunity, maybe you wind up regretting it later on. Yeah, very interesting. This has been such a wealth of information. I think it's just a fascinating topic. Kind of curious, is there anything we haven't covered that you want to be sure to cover with our audience here?

I guess I would say that come to come investigate, learn about Ukraine. It's maybe a little harder to get to than Paris or London, you go through Poland or Romania or someplace. But there's a lot to see there. And there's no, there's kind of no being on time in my estimation, you're either going to be early, or you're going to be late. So the forward looking companies that that get involved early, there are a lot of opportunities for them, and we can open doors for you and so forth. And secondly, you know, we mentioned Ukraine Prime Property Fund, I want to make really clear that this isn't an offer to buy or sell security.

Very good. Well, I'm curious, do you see yourself potentially just, you know, leading a group of let's say, however number of US business people over to Ukraine to help them understand and explore? Is that something you see yourself doing? I've already done it. Absolutely. Okay. That's something we've, we've, we've. done multiple times already. So it's, it's about as easy I speak Russian with a, you know, an American accent and imperfect

grammar, and no one really, almost everybody in Ukraine is bilingual, I move around very well, of course, I've got connections in all the cities and governments. So I'm happy to facilitate that and, and make sure people see what they need to see and have a good and relatively safe time. So but again, the experience will not be you look, you watch television. And of course, you see the scenes from Bach moot and

some of these other cities that have been completely destroyed. And again, not to downplay it at all. But you you don't have you won't have the same perception of risk that you probably get from watching the news at night. The risks exist, but it's not it's not homogenous across the country. Very interesting. Well, thank you so much. We're going to get your contact information here in a moment. We'll put it in the

show notes as well. But before we close out, I have to ask if you're willing to participate in something, a little something on the show we call rapid fire questions. So rapid fire is five questions. Some are serious, some are a little more silly. All you have to do is give a off the cuff response. You up to the challenge of rapid fire? I sure am. Awesome. Ryan, why don't you ask the first question? All righty. Question number one, what was the

biggest culture shock moment you had when you moved overseas? I mean, I had so many of them. You know, one thing that happened to me when I opened my first company in Kropotkin was in order to open a company, you had to have a bank account. But in order at this time, in order to have a bank account, you had to have a company. So I had, I had to, the process was you had to open a temporary company, then open a temporary bank account,

then open a permanent company, then open a permanent bank account. And all of these steps required multiple trips to the notary. So the notary, you know, we think of a notary in the United States is kind of, you know, that's sort of perfunctory and fast and doesn't cost very much. But the notary was the busiest place you could imagine. And they charge a great deal of money. There's a lot of fraud. So all these documents were bound

together with special green thread. Each page was notarized. And the back page had a wax red steel, wax red stamp on it. And so, you know, this massive project to do something that we think of is relatively simple. And that's, you know, that I own businesses in Brazil and other places. And, you know, ease of doing business in places like the United States are, or ease of opening companies are, you know, it's an important thing. So I think that that's

certainly one. I have to ask is like the notaries, are they controlled by the government? Are they like government officials? Or can it be anybody that kind of becomes a notary? In Russia, at least, my understanding was that somehow it was family related. And so my understanding is less than perfect on how you get to be a notary. I'm sorry, I don't have a better answer for that. I do know in Ukraine that, you know, a

notary is also important, but it felt like, you know, it's a little bit more streamlined, it's similar, similar system. Again, it doesn't justify Russian invasion, but, but notary and making sure your documents are correct and can't be fraudulent is an important thing. Very good. Question number two, I always get the food questions. I'm curious, is there a food that you ended up liking in Russia, or maybe Ukraine, that you never would have

imagined yourself liking? No. I'm, I'm pretty open minded about food. I got two things. First off, I will eat anything except beets. So borscht is off the menu for me. Okay, yeah, I'll eat pureed rat bones before I eat borscht. And that was off the menu. And I was the other thing that happened to me, I was at a friend's house in South Russia one time. And there was this great spread, we had this this banya,

this sauna experience where you go in and out, you jump in the cold water, and there's huge spread of food. And I, again, I'm open minded about food, I'll try anything. And, and I'm eating this meat. And I see that I wasn't used to the bone structure of this meat. And I said, I what in the hell is this? And I said, I said to Yuri, I said, you know, in Russian, I said, What is this? And he was trying to come up with the answer for me in in English,

he didn't speak much English. And he said, rabbit. And then he kind of, then he kind of squinted and he said, water rabbit. And I thought, I don't know if that feels good. And finally, and it was nutria. And yeah, that was, again, I, that was, you know, I thought, gee, I'm so open minded about food, but I don't know if I want to eat nutria. I would have passed on the nutria. I think I'd give me beats any

day. Okay, question number three. When you were eight years old, what did you want to be? Astronaut, scientist, or archaeologist, or maybe professional basketball player or baseball player. So I had kind of a broad scope. You had options. That's a good mix there. Yeah, but that sense of curiosity was there. The Celtics haven't contacted me lately about being point guard for them, but. Very good. Next question. What is a car or other vehicle that

you once owned that you wish you still owned? Well, I had, I drove Porsches one after another for years and they're, they're just great. They're just great automobiles. I had three of them in a row and, and can't go wrong with a Porsche. Very good. Last question. Just a quick gut answer to this. U.S. building products, U.S. building products manufacturers can win in the Ukraine reconstruction if they blank.

Show up. Love it. Good answer. It's the only short one you got out of me today. It was perfect. All your answers have been great. Bruce, thank you again for joining us. For someone who does want to connect with you, what are the best ways for them to do that? I can be reached at, I've got several emails, but I guess Tally, my last name, T-A-L-L-E-Y dot B-R at gmail.com would be a good way. I'm on LinkedIn as well, so they can find, easily find me on LinkedIn.

I found you very easily on LinkedIn. So great, great way to go as well. Yeah. Thank you again very much. This has been so enlightening and just, I just find it fascinating. So thank you for joining us today, Bruce. Thanks a lot for having me. It's a pleasure to spend the time with you. I've enjoyed talking with the both of you today and our interactions previously, Todd. I can see why you're, you both have great skills at this, so I can see why you do it.

And I appreciate the opportunity very much. Well, thank you again. And we'll put your contact information in the show notes as well. Well, thank you to our audience for tuning into this episode of Construction Disruption with Bruce Talley of Destination Ukraine. Please watch for future episodes of our podcast. We always have great guests. Don't forget to give us a positive review or a thumbs up. Until the next time we're together,

keep on looking for better ways of doing things, challenge the normal, and don't forget to have a positive impact on everyone you encounter. Make them smile and encourage them. So God bless and take care. This is Isaiah Industries signing off until the next episode of Construction Disruption. This podcast is produced by Isaiah Industries, manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building products.