Investing Where Others Won’t: A Global Family Office Real Estate Strategy

For the last 25 years, I've been in real

estate, which is my passion.

Back in 2015, I started working in the

family office space directly for several

prominent families on their real estate

portfolios.

With 70% of families losing their wealth

by the second generation and 90% by the

third generation,

I then realized that real estate would

be the missing component for families,

allowing them to maintain their legacy

and mitigate how much wealth is lost for

future generations.

It was shortly after working for my

first single family office that I

started interviewing successful real

estate families and industry experts.

These conversations

combined with my firstirhand experience

of working for families on their real

estate investments and currently

investing on behalf of families that has

allowed me to share this knowledge with

other family offices, family members,

and family office professionals so they

too can be good stewards of wealth.

I'm DJ Vancur and this is Family Office

Real Estate Insights from the Family

Office Real Estate Institute.

Welcome to the Family Office Real Estate

Institute. Today,

uh, we're going to be talking with Bruce

Tally, and we're going to be talking

about some international,

uh, real estate in, I would say, one of

the places in the world you probably

wouldn't think about initially.

So, Bruce, thanks for, uh, being on the

show.

>> Thanks a lot. It's a pleasure to be

here.

So, first off, tell us a little bit

about who you are and your background

and then we'll get into the topic.

>> Okay. Sure enough. I uh I worked for an

investment banking firm in California

for many years. Uh sold traded bond

issues, municipal bond issues.

California's got a very robust uh uh

bond market with a lot of issuers and

eventually led West Coast sales there.

Um and I developed a secondary book of

business selling loan participations to

community banks for

Native American casinos, hotels, condo

projects, that sort of thing. Still

debt, but not securitized.

Later on I had this idea that um

subsequently was proven false was that

Russia was going to join the community

of nations be a responsible member that

there and that there was a big

opportunity there. there's a big market.

Um it it it there there was a chance uh

you know for Russia be to become maybe

something like Poland or the Czech

Republic

in the way that they've developed the

the rule of law and more democratic

norms. And so I live I lived in Russia

for about 10 years. I bought and sold

commercial land in South Russia in a

region called Crescent Arc riots on the

east side of the Black Sea north of the

Cauasus Mountains. Uh had some great

results. Eventually I developed what

became destination Sochi. Um the

Olympics were coming to to Russia, the

Winter Olympics in 2014. So I started a

company and didn't know anything about

this industry at the time but I started

a company providing destination services

for the Olympic broadcasters partners

and sponsors that were going to come

there. So we provided services from

about 2011 to 2014. You know tours to

begin with events later on workforce

relocation together with financial

management of the contracts, TV studios,

offices, warehouses, staffing, catering,

laundry, uh transportation systems,

everything you could think of. We had

about 60 employees and became the

largest company of our kind in in

Russia. And later on I took that down to

Brazil. And then I I had uh subsequent

business in both Korea and Japan. But in

2014,

I was watching events in Ukraine

closely. 2013 2014 the revolution of

dignity, the events on the uh on

Independent Square in in in Kev. And the

FSB, their internal security service,

had spent about 5 years questioning me,

following me, talking to me,

interrogating me, everything you can

think of because they were suspicious

that uh because I was operating in I

operated in a couple regions that for

them were somewhat sensitive and they

were concerned that perhaps I was

working in the CIA. So I got a lot of

scrutiny for years and years and years.

>> Have you read the book Red Notice?

>> Yes, I have. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Do you might do you know Bill, brother?

>> I don't know him personally. know um but

what he talked about was very familiar

to me um I got a lot of scrutiny you

know on a different level than Bill Mr.

Browder. He was at that time was the

largest investor, foreign investor in

Russia. And it what was really

impressive is how he built that that

that company up. But but none of that

really surprised me and I was living

there during that period of time when

Sergey Magnitzki was killed.

>> Yeah.

>> So none of that was particularly

surprising. Anyway, I left in 2014. They

asked my opinions about what was

happening in Ukraine and I made it

really clear. I thought Ukraine should

be able to make their own decisions

without Russian interference. And it was

just a matter of time from that moment

on. I knew it was just a matter of time

until they began to

um accuse Americans of espionage. You

know, drop a flash drive in their

luggage or something like this. I knew

it would happen and somewhat locally

since I was somewhat prominent in South

Russia, uh I used social media and video

to to get the word out. So, um I thought

that I was somewhat of a target and it

was time time to leave. So, I left in in

in 2014. Then in 2022, and I know you

probably have questions about this. I'm

sorry if I'm running on a little bit,

but uh in 2022, immediately after Russia

escalated the war that they began in

2014, within I say immediately, within

four or five weeks, I was in Ukraine

um to learn what was going on. I knew a

lot about Ukraine from uh my time in in

in Russia. I'd been to Ukraine many,

many times and was quite familiar with

the country. So, I've been initially I

took um trauma kits and medical

equipment, those kinds of things over

and I've been back very regularly since.

I've started uh a company, Destination

Ukraine, to provide destination services

for the companies that relocate there.

And I've also been working with

investors on some projects. I've taken

uh some tech investors over uh land

developers um a modular building company

that's interested in setting up a

factory and then most specific to you

know our top our main topic um I'm

partnered with Doug Clayton of Leopard

Capital to launch a private real estate

fund focused on uh residential in

Ukraine.

>> Okay. So first off um let's talk about

this destination.

services and company. Tell me a little

bit more about what that looks like,

what that involves. Um, and um,

yeah, because I would imagine it's the

same thing in the different locations

around the world providing the same

services. It's just that you're in a

different location, right? So, what

exactly

is destination location

>> assistance? Great question. And it's one

of those things that kind of slips under

the radar and you don't really think

about. Somebody else put the bee in my

bonnet

uh early in the Olympic cycle before um

Sochi. We were in Sochi, an American

investor. We were looking around at some

property and he said we were there when

the the bid was announced that the that

the Russians had won for Sochi in 2014.

And he he looked around he said they're

going to need so much. They're going to

need portaotties. They're going to need

all this. and it it kind of put the bee

in my bonnet. And so it's providing

services.

Uh really it's a for us it's turnkey

service. So a company comes in, what do

you do? Um

do you need offices? Do you need

staffing? Do you need workforce

relocation?

What are the services? And we provided,

you know, a menu of services that uh

they can pick and choose from what they

need. And of course with the Olympics,

it's you've got a compressed time frame.

And there are these technical companies

that provide the services around the

Olympics, the rigging, the lighting, the

timing, the video screens, you know, the

broadcast systems, all of these systems.

Um, they require engineers, they require

people building drywall, you know, all

of this kind of stuff to to usually to

finish out the broadcast center, for

example. And so,

um, we would provide apartments that had

to be, uh, fixed to their specifics in

their contracts with their employees.

And we, we did, um, we provided, not

only did we provide the apartments, but

we also paid for them. So, we paid the

taxes, the rent, utility, Wi-Fi,

everything like that. So, it was kind of

a turnkey service. They would come, we

have folks, they need to get to work,

they need laundry, they need breakfast.

Um, you know, like that. And then later

when the broadcasters showed up, it was

similar, more intense. They might need a

a TV studio um and or sec andor security

and staffing and interpreters and you

know maybe events, catering, all this

kind of thing. So uh really it's it's

problem solving. And of course, Ukraine

is going to be faced with a

very very large reconstruction project.

And

so there'll be a lot of companies that

will be need similar services. It's it's

kind of the same thing. Maybe they'll

need work permits and building permits.

Maybe they want to buy a building. Um

they need work for force relocation.

They need interpreters. They need legal.

They need staffing. They might need

security transportation. All of these

kinds of services. So, it's kind of soup

to nuts, but not every country, not

every company needs each one of those

services. So, they're free to pick and

choose. And so, we're a a very reliable

service. I've done this now in multiple

countries and and um have the systems in

place and the people in place that can

speak virtually every Indo-Uropean

language and a number of the East Asian

ones as well. So,

>> well, I'll tell you the um so I went

over to Russia for the first time

probably

five, six years ago, maybe it was. And

um you know, my expectation

was much different, you know, more so of

what you see in the movies. And I didn't

realize how much of an international

city it is, how clean it was, and how

nice it was. I mean it was it was um it

was a you know a great experience. The

one thing that I I continue to remember

and it comes to my mind all the time is

seeing buildings that have scaffolds

that they're working on in the city and

then they'll put this

drape sort of over the side of it that

makes it look like the building

>> and it's so clean and I'm like New York

should be doing that because you know

they they don't do anything like that.

And it was it was really um I thought

that was I thought that was fascinating.

Um you know my friend that I went over

to see there he right when the Russia

and Ukraine war happened um he he just

left he left everything behind and and

all his stuff everything in his

apartment and just off he went.

>> Yeah. A lot of folks a lot of folks did

that. I know some people that have left

Russia because of the moral opposition

to invading Ukraine and killing people

and trying to take their land. You're

you're right though. Moscow is a big,

fun, fast, exciting city. There are few

places in the world like it. St.

Petersburg is really a beautiful place

as well. But if you get out into

provincial Russia, you see that the vast

majority of all the wealth, all the

power, the cultural uh whatever is

happening culturally is concentrated in

those cities. And so there's a big big

drop off in standards of living. There

are a couple of other cities that are

doing relatively well. Crashadar, Sochi,

uh Nishnov,

uh Novas, which I actually don't know.

there's some other cities but you know a

lot of the provincial areas are really

really struggling and I understand even

more so now during this period of of the

war so um Moscow Moscow is a is a great

city there's no question about it uh but

you know a big you get 100 kilometers

out of that city and you're going back

many many years in time and in lifestyle

and and

>> which is pro probably more of what I was

expecting

>> yeah you uh going on the outside. So, we

know that the the war has been going on

for a while now in Ukraine. We don't

really see anything that's sort of

stopping um immediately at least. And

at least what is portrayed across the

media and I know it differs based upon

what media platform you're listening to

not only in US but globally is that

there's a lot of buildings that have

been

just taken out aren't there a lot of a

lot of you know there which is going to

need the construction and everything

else and so a and the bombing is

continuing to happen So, how did you

come about

looking at building apartments in the

Ukraine?

>> Yeah. Well, we're not going to build.

We're We want to buy uh new apartments

or near new in prime prime districts

and uh also renovate in historic center,

you know, buy buy apartments that are in

great locations and need that. But but

but to to to answer your question, um

I looked at doing a lot of different

things in Russia and as I said, I bought

and sold some land. And at the end of

the day, the investment that would have

worked the best or did work the best

simply buying apartments. Moscow uh or

apartments in Moscow have went up

between 2000 20120 about 1,200%. So

there's a 12 times increase in value and

you know that's pretty tremendous and

that is and it's continued and so prices

the average price of an apartment in

Moscow right now of new build is about

$25,000

per square $25,000 per square meter. So

that's more than just on average that's

almost $3,000 a square foot and uh

that's average and some of them are 40

or 50,000 euros per square meter. So um

and and that's with the ruble declining

about 60%.

So I I was sure starting in about 2023

that real estate or residential real

estate was really a good option in

Ukraine because prices are between

six and 10 or 12 times less in Kev,

Leviv and Adessa than they are in

Russia. Now,

Ukraine and Russia have some

differences, but there are some sim

similarities in culture, uh, in business

systems, in legal systems, and also in

the in the infrastructure and how people

move around. And those cities were not

built with, you know, big freeways

funneling folks in and out. So,

locations are always important, but I

think even more so in a lot of these

posts Soviet capitals. Both Kev and

Moscow have got about 20% of their

respective nations gross domestic

product. So I I I believe that uh

residential is really really

undervalued. And

>> and you're and you're talking about not

apartment buildings but individual

units,

>> right? And here's here's

>> like condos like condos here in the US

basically.

>> Yeah, we would call them condos here in

the US. Here's here's the the

difference. is that about 70 to probably

north of 80% of the folks that live in

Kev um live in apartments and they they

want to they typically own them, right?

So, um,

the the premise is that when an

apartment building is built, you don't

have an owner of a multifamily project

who's, you know, like Fairfield or some

other company that is rent builds or

buys a 400 unit apartment complex and

then leases them all out. Typically

speaking, in fact, I can't think of a

single contrary example in several

decades of looking at this in Russia or

Ukraine where there's an owner that uh

rents an entire building out. It's they

uh build a building and during the

process of building it, they sell the

units out and the closer it gets to

final construction to the construction

being completed, the higher the price.

So, the earlier on you're taking a

greater risk. you get a you get a price

advantage. And so what that does for us

is that it allows us to buy in a number

of different locations in or build andor

buildings. And you know, you touched on

the damage and it's true there has been

extensive hundreds of billions of

dollars worth of damage, but it tends to

be concentrated

more in the east of the country. Now if

you watch the news there there are

nightly attacks on Kev and Adessa to

lesser extent Lviv but the damage is the

number of damage or destroyed apartments

in in these cities is less than 1%. So,

while I don't mean to minimize the human

cost and the terrible tragedy, that's

that's a lot of homes still, you know,

it's I think it's five or six thousand

in in Kev out of a total uh apartment

stock of over 800,000.

So, we feel that by, you know, moving

being in different districts in

different buildings that we're achieving

enough diversification that um that kind

of loss is not catastrophic. you know,

back in 2003,

um I here in the States, I put together

what was going to be the first single

family REIT. And so part of my research

was, you know, who's doing what. And I

remember there was another number of

companies that I ran across in Europe

that would either buy the floor, right?

They weren't buying the buildings or

they'd buy individual units just like

you're talking about and and they would

aggregate them, you know, together. Um

and that's what it sounds like and u

similar right just

>> yeah exactly you know there are as you

point out there are great historical

precedents in Poland and the Czech

Republic. There are other companies that

have done this exact thing in the post

EU accession environment. They bought a

number of apartments, aggregated it,

sold it to a, you know, an investor,

pension fund, insurance company, or or

somebody that wants to own u you know.

>> So, so um Oh, a couple questions. So, is

your your exit strategy to sell it as a

portfolio or individually?

>> That's right. It's um it's to we think

that uh we're convinced that the similar

kinds of folks in Europe especially that

are buying those portfolios in Poland

and Hungary and Czech Republic and then

the Baltics, we think that they're the

our customers. There's value in having a

you know a sizable portfolio of

apartments spread across three cities

with with excellent returns.

And of course you achieve some some

economies right if you sell it offshore

there are advantages um the money stays

in the country right and

um it's it's uh obviously less costly

from a from a and from a time and and uh

sales perspective as well if you're

selling one by one as opposed to the

whole portfolio. Now when I lived in

Vietnam, there was an issue having to do

with ownership and that happens in a

number of countries, right? Where there

has to be you have to have a partner

either to do business to be there,

right? Or ownership has to be a certain

percentage 5149.

Can foreigners purchase these properties

or do you actually need a partner?

That's that's a a great uh a great point

and that's you know I know that that's

the case in a number of of countries

especially in Southeast Asia. In Ukraine

you can hold an apartment as a as a

foreigner. We'll have a an onshore

company or companies that own the

apartments. We don't have to have a uh

uh we don't have to split ownership in

that way. So, um, but it's it's it's an

excellent question and and one of the

things one of the reasons why I believe

this is so attractive is that it's a

great store of wealth. It's the law

works very well for buying and selling

apartments in Ukraine. It's where people

that have money put it. It's a, you

know, it's a store of value. They can

live in it. They can rent it out. And

there's a lot more trust in property

than there are in the securities

markets. So the law works really well

for buying and selling and renting

apartments in Ukraine and the contracts

when we our idea where our plan we will

buy these apartments rent them out and

then as Ukrainian economy grows

eventually it sees to the EU property

values and rents are going to rise. But

the great the great situation here is

that the um all the contracts are

engraved up but pegged to the dollar. So

we're not taking a currency risk.

>> What um

okay let's say that that Russia does

take over Ukraine. Ukraine says fine or

whatever. not fine. But I mean, they end

up

including it in their,

you know, as part of their part of

Russia,

>> right, which he's trying to do, I

believe. And and so how would that

impact

everything that you're working on?

>> Well, it'd be I I fear it would be, you

know, a catastrophe for not just us, but

the Ukrainians. And so I I don't think

that that's

that is a risk. I don't think it's um a

particularly

strong risk. In nearly four years of

war, they've haven't really gained much

territory from what they were

controlling um in 2022. So I don't

believe that there's a high likelihood

that they'll be in Kev, Adessa, and or

Lviv. I I just don't think that it's

it's a risk, but um I think a a

relatively low percentage like low

single digits that they get to those

cities. There's still a number, you

know, uh all these cities are some

distance away from the front lines. The

Russians haven't been able to cross the

neper um at Hersan since 200 I can't

remember was 2022 or 2023 when they

pushed them back across the river. So

that's the closest. And when you're in

Adessa, we were in Adessa at the end of

August and early September. It's really

interesting because people are living,

working, vacationing, get getting

married. Other than uh

and again, not to minimize the human

tragedy here, but they're building

apartments right now in every one of

these cities. Significant numbers. Now

the the construction has dropped off

about to about 45% of pre-war levels.

But you if if you and I went there now I

could show you a number of buildings

that are in Adessa that are being

constructed.

And so I think that that's a risk but I

think it's uh it's more than priced into

the discount.

um

what's the chance or how how much how

close have they has Russia gotten to the

city center?

>> You know, in 2022 they were at an air

airirstrip just outside of Kev. Uh and

they did there were a lot of atrocities

committed in Pin and BHA which are uh

suburbs of Keev. So they were relatively

close at that point in time, but they

haven't been anywhere near there since

then. Um, right now they're hundreds of

miles away.

Um, now if you go to Harkefe, which is I

don't know, maybe it's 350 miles east of

Kev, I should know exactly. They're

they're not too far away from there. And

I've been in Kharkiv. Hark was the

second largest city and really sustained

a lot of damage. So, you know, one of

the things that people tend to think of

is, well, these European countries

aren't so big. Ukraine's sizable. It's

almost the size of Texas. So, what

happens in El Paso? Um, there's quite a

bit of difference between El Paso and

Houston, for example. You know, I think

that's what we're talking about.

In Lviv, I believe out of a housing

stock of about 280,000

apartments has sustained about 200 that

have been lost or severely damaged. So,

that's pretty small percentage. We're

less than 1% in Kev. Uh my best count in

Adessa is about 1,200 apartments out of

about 380,000. And I think that the vast

majority of the damage that's happened

in this war has already happened. So

yeah, undoubtedly a risk, but we think

that the prices more than compensate for

for what that risk is and that most of

the damage in the major major cities has

already happened.

>> So So when did you start thinking about

this thesis?

2023 is when it really came home to me

because I was looking around at these

apartments and thinking, gosh, you know,

they're they're so inexpensive

and I watched apartments just skyrocket

in Russia um over the last several

decades despite the fact and even now

prices are very high despite the fact

the rubles's down you know 60% from

pre2022 levels. So despite all that,

apartments are very very expensive

there. And I I think that there's a a

great case to be made that Adessa is a

more attractive place than Sochi. I

lived in Sochi for a number of years,

but they've got this beautiful historic

center. They got sandy beaches. It's the

major seapport for the country. Hu

historic city center with architecture

that you know is quite beautiful. Kev, I

believe, is going to be

the cool city in the coming decade. you

know what Berlin has been, what

Barcelona was, you know, what London is

on and off as, you know, the center for

digital nomads and for young people and

people that want to experience a fun

cosmopolitan lifestyle. I think Keev is

going to be the hot city in the decades

to come.

>> But is that that also is based upon

the war, right? And how things shake

out.

>> Yes. Yes. Um, but the war will end. And

what that looks like exactly, uh, anyone

I I I don't know. But Russia is so far

from Kev right now. Yes, they're lobbing

missiles in there. But if and I compare

it to cities in the west and you know

this you know you have cities that have

had tremendous damage from fires

>> or hurricanes

>> or hurricanes. And so I mean people hear

war and they think everything in in

Ukraine look looks like Bakmoot. And

again, not to underplay the damage and

the human tragedies, and you can hardly

talk to anybody in Ukraine without

hearing about one of these, but the

damage in Bakmood is entirely different

than what it is in Lviv. Lviv is only

about oh, I think it's around 50 60

miles to the Polish border. And there's

a lot of talk in Ukraine that there will

be a great deal of infrastructure

constructed around Lviv, a ring road, a

new airport, new new roads heading to

the eight Polish Ukrainian U border

crossings. And with labor costs that are

only about a quarter of what they are in

Poland, Ukraine is likely to become a

manufacturing hub for Europe, as is

Muldova.

Costs are so much lower there. and um as

it ases to the EU I think that's just

going to happen. So Lviv Lviv is a

beautiful AustroHungarian city. I think

it's also going to be attractive for

expats and then companies setting up

manufacturing. There are a number of

companies already uh you know kicking

the tires. South Koreans are over there.

There are a couple of very attractive

business parks outside Lviv that um u

the Ukrainian government is giving tax

benefits to. So I mean they're not just

in the Leviv area. They're around 120 I

think of them have been identified

nationwide. But there are so many things

that Ukraine has going for it. Lower

labor costs 25% of the world's best soil

black earth more than any other country

on Earth. Um, so you've got agriculture,

of course, the the rare earths have been

talked about extensively, and

manufacturing, and then you've got an

educated and sophisticated labor force,

particularly particularly in IT,

>> which is a big which is a big thing,

right? I mean, that that's why people

will go from part of the world to a

different part of the world when there's

economics can make better sense, right?

especially if they can get, you know,

personnel. I'll tell you, my my friend

um had lived in probably eight, nine

different countries around the world. He

worked for Colgate and he said the best

employees he ever had, the smartest was

in Russia, actually.

>> Yeah. You know, both countries have a

lot of talented folks. Of course, a lot

of those folks left Russia because of

their opposition to the war or not

wanting to be personally involved. Um

but yeah, Ukraine has got a lot of

talented folks. The other thing that we

see is that probably Ukraine is going to

become a hub for defense manufacturing

because they're at the forefront.

They're the leaders in drone technology

right now.

Yes. And so you see around us, which is

along on the Slovakian border, you see a

number of pharmaceutical and especially

defense companies have set up production

there because I don't think there's been

any uh any damage ink or it's minimal

from the war.

>> Wow. So where are you in the process

with this strategy that we're talking

about?

>> Yeah, we're we're in fund formation. Uh

we're looking for limited partners. We

have a website up uh ukrainec

capital.com. Important to note that uh

my discussion is not a uh offer to buy

or sell securities. That's only done

through legal meth means as you know.

But uh we're in that we're in that

process and we're really excited. It

it's um you know some folks just hear

war and gosh but there are a lot of lot

of people that understand that

postconlict environments

as this is so unique because we will at

some point we will enter a postconlict

environment. What else is the other

thing that's unique is that Ukraine is

almost certainly going to join the EU.

They are on fast track.

France, Germany, Sweden, Poland are all

big supporters of this. And then there's

this wall of money that's going to hit

Ukraine. So all of these factors uh make

for a once in a generation or maybe once

in a lifetime re repricing of

residential real estate.

>> What about debt? Where are you going to

get the debt from? And how much leverage

can you actually get?

We're still working that out, but our

numbers are even without leverage are um

very very attractive. So, initially

we're not planning on leverage.

>> Oh, really? So, you're going 100% in.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

>> That may change that may change uh as as

we get there, but at this moment we we

uh we don't need leverage to have

excellent returns.

>> Well,

So unlevered, what type of returns are

you projecting?

>> I got to be careful if I

>> what what's the potential of of

middle of the road?

>> Yeah. Well, if you just look at our peer

markets, Moscow uh apartments on average

are around eight times in price what

they are in Kev. If you look at Adessa,

Adessa right now you can buy quality

apartments for either unfinished because

they deliver them without floor and wall

coverings and kitchens and and

bathrooms. Um, but they're they're

cheaper in Adessa and you can buy

apartments there unfinished for around

a,000 maybe $1,500 a square meter which

is some somewhere less than a hundred to

maybe $1,300 a square foot or or$100 to

$130 a square foot. Those apartments are

in Sochi.

They might be between

uh five and $6,000 a square meter up to

25 or $30,000 a square meter. So you're

looking at five, six, eight, 10 times

higher prices. And we think that those

are the the the reference points because

of the similarities in infrastructure in

one where money goes how the laws work

in terms of transferring real estate. So

there's going to be big big rerating. If

you look at what happened in um Estonia

for example, they had multiple years

where residential

uh

exceeded 30% growth peranom in the two

years before joining the EU and the two

years after. Same thing in Poland in the

Czech Republic. So it 30% um annual

returns for those years are not um that

you know there's a precedent for it for

for countries that they had the what

they call the big bang in 2004 and 10

countries joined the EU and there were

there were subsequently there were big

uplifts in um residential prices. So,

you know, I'm not promising

returns here, but if you look at the the

historical press,

>> it's like anytime you're in a distress

or you of any sorts, I mean, we're going

in distress specifically in multifamily,

you know, as well. So, that's where

opportunities come from. And so, you

know, just like you said, when it's

fires or hurricanes, so it makes sense,

right? as long as there's that

fundamental to come out of it.

>> Yeah. And I think I really think that um

it the the risk for fires or hurricanes

are are a good analog. You know, I mean,

there are people that in the Midwest

will say, "Oh, why would you do anything

in Florida because of the hurricanes or

why would you do anything in Colorado or

California because of the wildfires?"

Well, things are happening. People are

still living in those places. So, um I I

think there's a there's a big

opportunity and I think that with

manufacturing, with agriculture, with

defense, with the wall of money that's

going to hit Ukraine, with the law

working very well for exchanging um

apartments, it's it's I think that uh

we're simply the first ones there and in

a few years there are going to be a lot

of other folks that are are, you know,

>> Well, that's good, too, because that

could be part of an exit strategy,

right? if some people are coming in and

you're not taking the full upside, but

still you're taking awful nice upside.

Right.

>> Right.

>> And you have that liquidity component.

So, you know, Bruce, usually when we

when we talk about things here on the um

on the show, we we we really get into

exactly what we're talking about with

from an educational perspective as well.

But I do want you to mention your um

website again because to me this is just

so fascinating and it's it's one of

those um you don't hear much of it,

right? But it makes a lot of sense in

many regards.

>> Yeah, it's uh Ukraine capital.com.

So you can go there and and uh find our

contact information and uh I I my uh

partner on this the CEO in fact of of

Ukraine Capital is Doug Clayton and so

he is uh I've got a lot of experience in

postsviet markets and Doug has got uh a

great deal of experience in private

equity. He raised and managed funds for

Leopard Capital in Cambodia and Haiti

and has a lot of experience in frontier

markets. So, you know, it's a I think

it's a good team.

>> Well, good. Well, Bruce, um thank you so

much for being on the show and would

love to have you back. Um

because to to hear how things are

progressing and what's happening, you

know, because uh it's nice to hear that

there's some positive things in in many

regards that are happening, you know, in

Ukraine. If other companies or countries

are starting to come in, obviously

they're they're looking to help out in

some capacity, obviously. Um but um but

thanks so much for being on the show. I

want you to stick around for a minute

here uh after we finish up. But um yeah,

keep us posted as you go. Okay.

>> I I'll absolutely do it. Thank you for

having me on. In closing, I just like to

say that Ukrainians are very resilient

people. Um, I think it's a human quality

and people are getting up and they're

going to work and they're building

apartments and they're, you know,

manufacturing drones and they're

planting their crops and they're doing

this under tremendous pressure. I hope

the United States helps more than we

have been recently. Um, but there are

other other companies and other folks

looking around and now is the time to

get involved. I really think so. Yeah.

>> Yeah. But especially from a contrarian

perspective, for sure.

>> Yeah.

>> So,

>> all right, Bruce, thanks so much and and

keep us posted and we'll have you on

again. Okay.

>> Thank you. I'll do it.